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	<title>Comments on: Something I Have No Right Whatsoever to Complain About</title>
	<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/</link>
	<description>Sometime editor, all-the-time mother, delivering facts, reviews, commentary, and rants. Occasionally in that order.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-282034</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 20:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-282034</guid>
					<description>Anwyn: Why do you assume it's either bad or illegal for stores do the same?  I'm pretty sure that Target and Amazon did precisely that a couple years back at Christmas, when it became a big joke that you could buy Marijuana at Target.com.  [Marijuana is a book, of course, and one Target is unlikely to stock on its own, compounded by the fact that the Target.com version of the entry &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; said Marijuana and specified a price, while the Amazon entry listed author, publisher, etc.]  It almost sounds like you have something against joint ventures in general.

Daryl: I can't see any airline getting busted for individually &lt;i&gt;refusing&lt;/i&gt; to code-share.  Concerted boycotts are a different matter, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anwyn: Why do you assume it&#8217;s either bad or illegal for stores do the same?  I&#8217;m pretty sure that Target and Amazon did precisely that a couple years back at Christmas, when it became a big joke that you could buy Marijuana at Target.com.  [Marijuana is a book, of course, and one Target is unlikely to stock on its own, compounded by the fact that the Target.com version of the entry <i>only</i> said Marijuana and specified a price, while the Amazon entry listed author, publisher, etc.]  It almost sounds like you have something against joint ventures in general.</p>
<p>Daryl: I can&#8217;t see any airline getting busted for individually <i>refusing</i> to code-share.  Concerted boycotts are a different matter, of course.
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		<title>by: Daryl Herbert</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-281861</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-281861</guid>
					<description>It's been a while since my anti-trust class, but here's why it's probably legal:

1 - "And if it is profitable, why are so many of them bankrupt?"  This is not a valid assumption.  They are going bankrupt because the industry as a whole is struggling.  It's very likely that code sharing is helping them not to lose even more money.

2 - These practices don't constitute a "monopoly" and they are not "monopolistic."  They aren't done in order to win a larger share of the market or otherwise discourage competitors.  If they are illegal, it is because they are contracts in restraint of trade.

3 - the airline industry is heavily regulated by Congress.  It's easier to do things that would otherwise violate AT law if the courts can see that there's already government oversight.

4 - When they overbook, airlines have to put bumped passengers on another flight.  This requires airlines to know about what the other airlines are up to.  If they don't code share, then every time they overbooked, they would have to call up the other airlines, one by one, and ask them what seats were available.

5 - Code sharing makes economic sense for the individual airlines.  It can't be said that any airline would stand to benefit from reneging on their agreements.  It's also probably a custom and practice of the industry.

6 - When airlines buy tickets from other airlines, they are acting like any other customer.  &lt;i&gt;Refusing&lt;/i&gt; to do business with competitors can be an antitrust violation. (Aspen Skiing).  If a big airline like Delta refused to code share with smaller airlines, forcing those smaller airlines to increase their number of flights, that could be seen as monopolization conduct designed to drive those small competitors out of business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s been a while since my anti-trust class, but here&#8217;s why it&#8217;s probably legal:</p>
<p>1 - &#8220;And if it is profitable, why are so many of them bankrupt?&#8221;  This is not a valid assumption.  They are going bankrupt because the industry as a whole is struggling.  It&#8217;s very likely that code sharing is helping them not to lose even more money.</p>
<p>2 - These practices don&#8217;t constitute a &#8220;monopoly&#8221; and they are not &#8220;monopolistic.&#8221;  They aren&#8217;t done in order to win a larger share of the market or otherwise discourage competitors.  If they are illegal, it is because they are contracts in restraint of trade.</p>
<p>3 - the airline industry is heavily regulated by Congress.  It&#8217;s easier to do things that would otherwise violate AT law if the courts can see that there&#8217;s already government oversight.</p>
<p>4 - When they overbook, airlines have to put bumped passengers on another flight.  This requires airlines to know about what the other airlines are up to.  If they don&#8217;t code share, then every time they overbooked, they would have to call up the other airlines, one by one, and ask them what seats were available.</p>
<p>5 - Code sharing makes economic sense for the individual airlines.  It can&#8217;t be said that any airline would stand to benefit from reneging on their agreements.  It&#8217;s also probably a custom and practice of the industry.</p>
<p>6 - When airlines buy tickets from other airlines, they are acting like any other customer.  <i>Refusing</i> to do business with competitors can be an antitrust violation. (Aspen Skiing).  If a big airline like Delta refused to code share with smaller airlines, forcing those smaller airlines to increase their number of flights, that could be seen as monopolization conduct designed to drive those small competitors out of business.
</p>
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		<title>by: Anwyn</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-281590</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 13:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-281590</guid>
					<description>Dammit, I just erased two paragraphs' worth of comment through two keystrokes on an unfamiliar keyboard.

Unfortunately I don't know enough about the inner workings of it myself to say what the FAA says about it, but I'd like to be able to follow the money. How is this different from Wal-Mart saying, "I'm sorry, Mrs. Jones, we're out of product XYZ at the moment, but if you go next door to Target they'll sell it to you at Wal-Mart's advertised price" and then ... splitting the money with Target? If the airlines split revenue from codeshare, how is that profitable? And if it isn't profitable, why do they do it? And if it is profitable, why are so many of them bankrupt? Although I note that the ones that went out this week were small and unlikely to be in on the codesharing. But Delta filed bankruptcy last year after codesharing for years.

It seems fishy to me. It's something I'd like to know more about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dammit, I just erased two paragraphs&#8217; worth of comment through two keystrokes on an unfamiliar keyboard.</p>
<p>Unfortunately I don&#8217;t know enough about the inner workings of it myself to say what the FAA says about it, but I&#8217;d like to be able to follow the money. How is this different from Wal-Mart saying, &#8220;I&#8217;m sorry, Mrs. Jones, we&#8217;re out of product XYZ at the moment, but if you go next door to Target they&#8217;ll sell it to you at Wal-Mart&#8217;s advertised price&#8221; and then &#8230; splitting the money with Target? If the airlines split revenue from codeshare, how is that profitable? And if it isn&#8217;t profitable, why do they do it? And if it is profitable, why are so many of them bankrupt? Although I note that the ones that went out this week were small and unlikely to be in on the codesharing. But Delta filed bankruptcy last year after codesharing for years.</p>
<p>It seems fishy to me. It&#8217;s something I&#8217;d like to know more about.
</p>
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		<title>by: Xrlq</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-281438</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-281438</guid>
					<description>Bumble, I'm not sure why you think anything turns on the airlines not being a monopoly.  As their name implies, antitrust laws primarily target not monopolies &lt;i&gt;per se&lt;/i&gt; but "trusts," a.k.a., cartels.  The very concept of collusion implies the absence of a monopoly, as if a company is a monopoly, there's no one left to collude &lt;i&gt;with.&lt;/i&gt;  Nor does it matter that the practice in question is limited to a few participating airlines rather than the entire industry.  It only takes two to collude.

Then again, it only takes two to establish a legitimate joint venture, either, which is why I don't think the issue is anywhere near as simple as our hostess suggests.  Is it &lt;i&gt;possible&lt;/i&gt; that two or more airlines may conspire to code-share a single flight on a large plane rather than operating two smaller, competing ones, and further agree among themselves to charge consumers exactly $X for that shared flight, leaving no room for competition along a route where competition might otherwise have existed?  Sure.  It's equally easy to envision a (much more typical, I think) scenario in which there wasn't enough of a market to support both airlines running their own planes along the same route at about the same time, and a code share allows them to kinda-sorta compete where no competition would otherwise exist at all (and which one of the two airlines would then be unable to use even for connecting flights to other cities).  Thus, depending on the implementation, a code share can either be pro- or anti-competitive.  Not being in the industry, I have no idea what the process is for sorting out the two, &lt;i&gt;e.g.,&lt;/i&gt; whether code shares must be approved by the FAA, or whether such approval precludes anyone else from challenging a practice as a anti-competitive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bumble, I&#8217;m not sure why you think anything turns on the airlines not being a monopoly.  As their name implies, antitrust laws primarily target not monopolies <i>per se</i> but &#8220;trusts,&#8221; a.k.a., cartels.  The very concept of collusion implies the absence of a monopoly, as if a company is a monopoly, there&#8217;s no one left to collude <i>with.</i>  Nor does it matter that the practice in question is limited to a few participating airlines rather than the entire industry.  It only takes two to collude.</p>
<p>Then again, it only takes two to establish a legitimate joint venture, either, which is why I don&#8217;t think the issue is anywhere near as simple as our hostess suggests.  Is it <i>possible</i> that two or more airlines may conspire to code-share a single flight on a large plane rather than operating two smaller, competing ones, and further agree among themselves to charge consumers exactly $X for that shared flight, leaving no room for competition along a route where competition might otherwise have existed?  Sure.  It&#8217;s equally easy to envision a (much more typical, I think) scenario in which there wasn&#8217;t enough of a market to support both airlines running their own planes along the same route at about the same time, and a code share allows them to kinda-sorta compete where no competition would otherwise exist at all (and which one of the two airlines would then be unable to use even for connecting flights to other cities).  Thus, depending on the implementation, a code share can either be pro- or anti-competitive.  Not being in the industry, I have no idea what the process is for sorting out the two, <i>e.g.,</i> whether code shares must be approved by the FAA, or whether such approval precludes anyone else from challenging a practice as a anti-competitive.
</p>
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		<title>by: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-281134</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 05:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-281134</guid>
					<description>. . . ATA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>. . . ATA.
</p>
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		<title>by: BT in SA</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-281063</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 02:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-281063</guid>
					<description>We've been here five years, Anwyn.  Will be here a minimum of another five.  But if you can do ten years, may as well do fifteen.  We may be here a while.  I leave two or three times a year and return to normalcy in the States.  If I didn't I would go crazy!  [And when I fly now, I book seats in business class - and have enough miles so that I automatically get upgraded on domestic flights to first class on a couple of airlines.  Sure beats flying on a pass!!!  It's amazing how differently you get treated when you are a paying passenger, although I will say that domestic flying just sucks compared to international.  I'm amazed that some airlines are still in business in the States - although three have gone under in the past week - Aloha, Skybus and - I'll think of the third - one that'd been around for about ten years...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve been here five years, Anwyn.  Will be here a minimum of another five.  But if you can do ten years, may as well do fifteen.  We may be here a while.  I leave two or three times a year and return to normalcy in the States.  If I didn&#8217;t I would go crazy!  [And when I fly now, I book seats in business class - and have enough miles so that I automatically get upgraded on domestic flights to first class on a couple of airlines.  Sure beats flying on a pass!!!  It&#8217;s amazing how differently you get treated when you are a paying passenger, although I will say that domestic flying just sucks compared to international.  I&#8217;m amazed that some airlines are still in business in the States - although three have gone under in the past week - Aloha, Skybus and - I&#8217;ll think of the third - one that&#8217;d been around for about ten years&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Anwyn</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-280348</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 14:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-280348</guid>
					<description>And Bumble--you're right I said I thought it was a monopoly ... sorry for being short. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Bumble&#8211;you&#8217;re right I said I thought it was a monopoly &#8230; sorry for being short. :)
</p>
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		<title>by: Anwyn</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-280344</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 14:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-280344</guid>
					<description>Oh man, I remember those rules well. Back before the regional was bought, we had those too. My mother had to buy a pair of hose in an airport shop one time. Nowadays there are no clothing rules unless you list to go in first class, thank goodness.

I just read a few things on your blog ... what an experience you're having. Is this a limited-time stay over there or indefinite?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh man, I remember those rules well. Back before the regional was bought, we had those too. My mother had to buy a pair of hose in an airport shop one time. Nowadays there are no clothing rules unless you list to go in first class, thank goodness.</p>
<p>I just read a few things on your blog &#8230; what an experience you&#8217;re having. Is this a limited-time stay over there or indefinite?
</p>
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		<title>by: BT in SA</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-279861</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 08:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-279861</guid>
					<description>Oh my gosh, Anwyn, I sooo sooo do NOT miss flying on passes and standby.  My husband was a commercial pilot for many years and I flew on a pass if we wanted to go somewhere - he could usually get a seat easily, being a pilot he could "jump seat," but I couldn't.  I swear Northwest treated us worse than baggage - more than once!  [And there were rules associated with flying on a pass - no jeans for example and I was actually asked to change clothes once for wearing a long denim skirt!]  So thankful those days are over for us and we don't fly that way anymore.  It was just more trouble than it was worth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh my gosh, Anwyn, I sooo sooo do NOT miss flying on passes and standby.  My husband was a commercial pilot for many years and I flew on a pass if we wanted to go somewhere - he could usually get a seat easily, being a pilot he could &#8220;jump seat,&#8221; but I couldn&#8217;t.  I swear Northwest treated us worse than baggage - more than once!  [And there were rules associated with flying on a pass - no jeans for example and I was actually asked to change clothes once for wearing a long denim skirt!]  So thankful those days are over for us and we don&#8217;t fly that way anymore.  It was just more trouble than it was worth.
</p>
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		<title>by: Anwyn</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-277272</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2008/04/03/something-i-have-no-right-whatsoever-to-complain-about/#comment-277272</guid>
					<description>Xrlq:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t understand why you think code sharing is illegal. They’re not colluding on the price or agreeing to run fewer flights so they can jack up prices.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But if Delta can sell the same flight at the same price on Northwest, whereas ordinarily Northwest would have to attractively lower its price to get that customer away from Delta, how is that not colluding on the price AND offering fewer flights? If there were a separate Delta and a separate Northwest on the same route, they would have to compete. Whereas now they can "share." You are right that any company that could not lower its price enough to attract the customers would go out and then the remaining companies could raise the price a bit ...... and then maybe the airlines would be solvent, not subject to government bailouts and chapter 11 reorg, etc. etc. etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xrlq:</p>
<blockquote><p>I don’t understand why you think code sharing is illegal. They’re not colluding on the price or agreeing to run fewer flights so they can jack up prices.</p></blockquote>
<p>But if Delta can sell the same flight at the same price on Northwest, whereas ordinarily Northwest would have to attractively lower its price to get that customer away from Delta, how is that not colluding on the price AND offering fewer flights? If there were a separate Delta and a separate Northwest on the same route, they would have to compete. Whereas now they can &#8220;share.&#8221; You are right that any company that could not lower its price enough to attract the customers would go out and then the remaining companies could raise the price a bit &#8230;&#8230; and then maybe the airlines would be solvent, not subject to government bailouts and chapter 11 reorg, etc. etc. etc.
</p>
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