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	<title>Comments on: Weekly Tolkien: Go Not to the Elves, Seriously</title>
	<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2007/05/19/weekly-tolkien-go-not-to-the-elves-seriously/</link>
	<description>Sometime editor, all-the-time mother, delivering facts, reviews, commentary, and rants. Occasionally in that order.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 05:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2007/05/19/weekly-tolkien-go-not-to-the-elves-seriously/#comment-56814</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2007/05/19/weekly-tolkien-go-not-to-the-elves-seriously/#comment-56814</guid>
					<description>"They have no incentive whatsoever to live in the world and share its burdens. Would you care, if you could leave the world any time you wished to live forever in a realm of unspoiled bliss?"

     I'm not certain the elves (or even the Valar) could regard the Blessed Realm as 'Unspoiled bliss.'  Valinor suffered the loss of the Trees at the hands of Morgoth and Ungoliant.  Later, the Valar had to essentially give Aman back to Eru because even they could not stop the onslaught of the Numenoreans under Ar-Pharazon.  

     Elrond would not have remembered the attack on the Trees except as lore, but he certainly had relatively immediate dealings with the exiled Faithful of Numenor and would have learned about the invasion.  He also had to have learned about the sundering of the seas.  One could presume these factors led him to conclude that left unchecked in Middle Earth, Sauron (a fallen Maia) would eventually be able to find a way to invade Valinor again, even though the world had been broken and remade.

     I'm sure the elves knew they had to help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;They have no incentive whatsoever to live in the world and share its burdens. Would you care, if you could leave the world any time you wished to live forever in a realm of unspoiled bliss?&#8221;</p>
<p>     I&#8217;m not certain the elves (or even the Valar) could regard the Blessed Realm as &#8216;Unspoiled bliss.&#8217;  Valinor suffered the loss of the Trees at the hands of Morgoth and Ungoliant.  Later, the Valar had to essentially give Aman back to Eru because even they could not stop the onslaught of the Numenoreans under Ar-Pharazon.  </p>
<p>     Elrond would not have remembered the attack on the Trees except as lore, but he certainly had relatively immediate dealings with the exiled Faithful of Numenor and would have learned about the invasion.  He also had to have learned about the sundering of the seas.  One could presume these factors led him to conclude that left unchecked in Middle Earth, Sauron (a fallen Maia) would eventually be able to find a way to invade Valinor again, even though the world had been broken and remade.</p>
<p>     I&#8217;m sure the elves knew they had to help.
</p>
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		<title>by: Anwyn&#8217;s Notes in the Margin &#187; Weekly Tolkien: Go Not to the Elves, Follow-Up</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2007/05/19/weekly-tolkien-go-not-to-the-elves-seriously/#comment-42996</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 20:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2007/05/19/weekly-tolkien-go-not-to-the-elves-seriously/#comment-42996</guid>
					<description>[...] Just a quickie this time, a follow-up to last time&#8217;s observations on Elves. LagunaDave said: In some ways, the Elves remind me of religious people who devoutly believe they will spend eternity in a heaven where everything is perfect after they die. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Just a quickie this time, a follow-up to last time&#8217;s observations on Elves. LagunaDave said: In some ways, the Elves remind me of religious people who devoutly believe they will spend eternity in a heaven where everything is perfect after they die. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: fallohide</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2007/05/19/weekly-tolkien-go-not-to-the-elves-seriously/#comment-37011</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2007 17:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2007/05/19/weekly-tolkien-go-not-to-the-elves-seriously/#comment-37011</guid>
					<description>I always thought the proverb quoted by Frodo had much to do with the Elves' awareness of themselves being bound to Fate, and not having many options. The other free peoples of Middle Earth were not bound to Fate so much, so there were more choices for them. Or rather, the Men &#38; Hobbits would need to make their own choices, rather than Elves make one for them. I have always liked that part of the Elves as given by Tolkien. Despite being long-lived, and knowledgeable in many things, they do not presume that their own wisdom is sufficient for them to act as oracles for the rest of Middle Earth. 

Although Frodo sincerely asks for advice, Gildor sincerely doubts he can offer true guidance based on his limited knowledge of the situation. Also, whatever Gildor says, Frodo will be responsible for his own actions anyway, and the matter of the One Ring and the Black Riders is one with too many consequences to just give advice off the top of his head. Telling Frodo to find Gandalf ASAP &#38; confer with him about seems like the best thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always thought the proverb quoted by Frodo had much to do with the Elves&#8217; awareness of themselves being bound to Fate, and not having many options. The other free peoples of Middle Earth were not bound to Fate so much, so there were more choices for them. Or rather, the Men &amp; Hobbits would need to make their own choices, rather than Elves make one for them. I have always liked that part of the Elves as given by Tolkien. Despite being long-lived, and knowledgeable in many things, they do not presume that their own wisdom is sufficient for them to act as oracles for the rest of Middle Earth. </p>
<p>Although Frodo sincerely asks for advice, Gildor sincerely doubts he can offer true guidance based on his limited knowledge of the situation. Also, whatever Gildor says, Frodo will be responsible for his own actions anyway, and the matter of the One Ring and the Black Riders is one with too many consequences to just give advice off the top of his head. Telling Frodo to find Gandalf ASAP &amp; confer with him about seems like the best thing.
</p>
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		<title>by: LagunaDave</title>
		<link>http://www.anwyn.com/2007/05/19/weekly-tolkien-go-not-to-the-elves-seriously/#comment-36570</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2007 19:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.anwyn.com/2007/05/19/weekly-tolkien-go-not-to-the-elves-seriously/#comment-36570</guid>
					<description>The Elves always puzzled me.  Before the Silmarillion came out (yes, I'm so old that I read LotR before it was published...:-)) they really lacked any depth.  Even in that work, it was hard for me to identify with their motivations and behavior, partly because the Silmarillion's prose is so turgid, but also because the perspective of immortality is so strange.

Their society is not very well fleshed out - as far as I can recall, we have never met an Elf farmer, or an Elf engaged in any other common, useful trade other than creating magical trinkets of one kind or another.  Once their struggle with Morgoth (which is portrayed as a huge mistake in that it deviated from the plan of letting the Valar provide everything they needed) was over, the Elves apparently had no needs, and no challenges.  One might think that 6-7000 years they might have invented something like the steam engine, moveable-type printing, calculus, or the internet (:-)) or discovered the laws of gravity and electricity, explored and settled the rest of Middle Earth, cured cancer, etc.  But in real life, necessity *is* the mother of invention and exploration.  With no material needs unmet, there is no reason to innovate, and no notion of progress.

In some ways, the Elves remind me of religious people who devoutly believe they will spend eternity in a heaven where everything is perfect after they die.  They seem to accept unquestioningly that this is something desirable.  Maybe, but it is a lot easier to idealize such an existence than to understand what it would mean in practice.  So many of the things we value in life are somehow flavored by the fact that we have to struggle for them - the fact that they are exceptional, and special.  An cloying existence where you never lack for anything, with no conflicts or challenges, where you have only to wish for something in order to have it, *seems* attractive for a month, or a year, or even a lifetime.  But for an eternity?  Not so much.

Talking Heads captured this idea in their song "Heaven":

Everyone is trying
To get into the bar
The name of the bar
The bar is called Heaven.
The band in Heaven
They play my favorite song
Play it once again
Play it all night long
.

Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens
Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens
.

Sound like a pretty good description of Valinor too.

I never wanted to be an elf.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Elves always puzzled me.  Before the Silmarillion came out (yes, I&#8217;m so old that I read LotR before it was published&#8230;:-)) they really lacked any depth.  Even in that work, it was hard for me to identify with their motivations and behavior, partly because the Silmarillion&#8217;s prose is so turgid, but also because the perspective of immortality is so strange.</p>
<p>Their society is not very well fleshed out - as far as I can recall, we have never met an Elf farmer, or an Elf engaged in any other common, useful trade other than creating magical trinkets of one kind or another.  Once their struggle with Morgoth (which is portrayed as a huge mistake in that it deviated from the plan of letting the Valar provide everything they needed) was over, the Elves apparently had no needs, and no challenges.  One might think that 6-7000 years they might have invented something like the steam engine, moveable-type printing, calculus, or the internet (:-)) or discovered the laws of gravity and electricity, explored and settled the rest of Middle Earth, cured cancer, etc.  But in real life, necessity *is* the mother of invention and exploration.  With no material needs unmet, there is no reason to innovate, and no notion of progress.</p>
<p>In some ways, the Elves remind me of religious people who devoutly believe they will spend eternity in a heaven where everything is perfect after they die.  They seem to accept unquestioningly that this is something desirable.  Maybe, but it is a lot easier to idealize such an existence than to understand what it would mean in practice.  So many of the things we value in life are somehow flavored by the fact that we have to struggle for them - the fact that they are exceptional, and special.  An cloying existence where you never lack for anything, with no conflicts or challenges, where you have only to wish for something in order to have it, *seems* attractive for a month, or a year, or even a lifetime.  But for an eternity?  Not so much.</p>
<p>Talking Heads captured this idea in their song &#8220;Heaven&#8221;:</p>
<p>Everyone is trying<br />
To get into the bar<br />
The name of the bar<br />
The bar is called Heaven.<br />
The band in Heaven<br />
They play my favorite song<br />
Play it once again<br />
Play it all night long<br />
.</p>
<p>Heaven<br />
Heaven is a place<br />
A place where nothing<br />
Nothing ever happens<br />
Heaven<br />
Heaven is a place<br />
A place where nothing<br />
Nothing ever happens<br />
.</p>
<p>Sound like a pretty good description of Valinor too.</p>
<p>I never wanted to be an elf.
</p>
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